Thursday, June 25, 2009

Being George Tiller

Kirby Olson asked, in a comment to What Makes a Christian? the following question:

By the way, do you think it's possible to be an abortionist like Dr. George Tiller and still be a Christian. Is he doing unto others? to the mother, yes, but what about to the babies?

It soon became clear to me that there was no way my reply was going to fit within the 4095 character limit for comments, and also no particularly sensible way to divide the reply into pieces. And so, a post.

I think the record is quite clear that Dr. Tiller was a Christian. I'd like to consider two more subtle questions, though, that I believe are at the heart of Kirby's question.

How did he reconcile his livelihood as an abortionist with his Christian beliefs?

It is not difficult to conjecture, although I think there are a lot of Christians who would disagree with some of his premises. I suspect he believed something like the following:

  1. The value of a human life is a function of our investment in it and its potential, and the investment in an undesired fetus is minimal.

    We as society have invested a lot in the mothers, who might on average be a woman in her low-20's, with 12 years of compulsory education and 1-2 years of college. On the other hand, society as a whole has a fairly minimal investment in a fetus, and the great majority of that investment has come from the mother. To be blunt about it, she can probably make another if she wishes.

    Of course, this sort of thinking can easily lead to infanticide (which I distinguish from abortion by applying the obvious criteria), euthanasia, and even eugenics, so generally speaking people who believe in this way apply limiting threshold tests (you don't kill infants, you only euthanize those who request it, and where that request meets certain criteria, etc.). But the logical extreme of this kind of thinking is the society of “Logan's Run.”

    This kind of economic thinking pervades a lot of decisions about who lives and who dies, and you'd have to be extraordinarily naïve to believe otherwise. Consider, for example, that back when the military draft was active, we drafted men as they exited high school. We drafted men, because the biological ability of a society to replenish itself is proportional to of the number of females of child-bearing age, the number of men hardly matters so long as the female:male ratio doesn't fall too much below 10:1 (Remember Dr. Strangelove?! Come on guys, you know you were all suddenly very alert when you heard that line.). Or, as one of my hunting friends says, "if you want to thin the herd, you have to shoot the does." We don't draft younger men (in whom we have less of an investment) because they're not yet physically ready, and we don't draft them much older because we have a larger investment in them, and they've acquired responsibilities (care for a spouse and possibly children) that it would be expensive for society to provide for otherwise. I would argue that the education deferment of the Vietnam War was a particularly clear example of how this kind of thinking plays out in terms of governmental policy.

    I think it probable that Dr. Tiller believed that the “value” of a woman (to herself, if not society at large increased as a result of the procedures he performed. Maybe she'd be able to go back to college (and live an upper-middle class life) instead of having to go to work as a waitress to support herself and her child (likely consigning her to a lower-class life). He might have even thrown in the expected value of her offspring (not just the present fetus, but future children too). Being able to delay when you give birth might mean that the children she ultimately bore would be better fed, better educated, etc.

  2. Fetuses are not yet human.

    The observations of various pro-life groups that they can feel pain, etc., would not have been material to this kind of thinking. After all, biologists often cause pain to laboratory animals, and no one thinks that their capacity for pain makes them human. In some ways, this mode of thinking parallels (1)—it believes that humanity is something that is acquired over time by biological animals of the species homo sapiens sapiens, along with societal value. In this kind of thinking, it is perfectly reasonable to say that a 12 year old is “more human” than a 3 year old. We'll set aside for now the special case of 15 year olds, who often seem less human (at least to their parents) than 12 year olds ;-).

    Again, this kind of thinking can, and historically did, lead certain cultures to infanticide, euthanasia, etc. But these steps are not necessary, and there are philosophically defensible positions that permit abortion, but preclude infanticide. To put it differently, yes, there's a slippery slope, but the grade is not steep, and there are plenty of good handholds for those who want to use them.

  3. Abortion is not murder.

    While there's a lot of scriptural guidance on murder specifically, and violence generally, there's not a lot of scriptural guidance on abortion specifically. Indeed, you might want to read Numbers 5:11-28, which describes how a Priest should use an abortificiant as test of faithfulness for pregnant wives whose faithfulness is in doubt. Yes, the LORD told Moses to attempt to induce abortion in women whose faithfulness was in doubt.

  4. Doctors decide when people die.

    Again, Doctors decide when people die. You probably don't think about this, and you probably imagine that that Doctors fight for life their patient's life until the very end. Death is part of life, and when possible, death is a medically managed process. Doctors, who understand all too well the alternatives, want “good deaths” for their patients. It would not surprise me if Dr. Tiller thought in these terms—that the prognosis for the fetus was a difficult life (after all, their mother's didn't want them, and this is a bad start for anyone), and this was a “managed” death, much quicker and less painful than their life of unrealized humanity would be expected to be.

  5. He did not set out to be an abortionist, instead he was forced into this role by the anti-abortion movement.

    Please, hear me out on this one, which may seem counterintuitive.

    The testimonials I've read to Dr. Tiller on the more liberal blogs reflect a diversified obstetrics/gynecology practice. Abortion would have started out as a tiny part of that, and likely one that was limited to fetuses that were not viable or where abortion was necessary to save the life of the mother (e.g., ectopic pregnancies).

    But the record of attempted intimidation of Dr. Tiller (including a previous murder attempt in which he was shot in both arms, and legal harassment by the Kansas Attorney General, who abused the full power of his office to entangle Dr. Tiller in litigation) proves, if nothing else, that Dr. Tiller was a courageous, and indeed, possibly stubborn man. As his colleagues stopped doing abortions because they were intimidated, he became increasingly the only person in central plains who would perform the procedure.

    I think it is likely that the tactics of intimidation were less affective on the demand side of the abortion equation. The women seeking abortion would have been more desperate, and the anti-abortion terrorists (note that I am not using this phrase to imply that everyone who opposes abortion is a terrorist—but rather to separate the pro-life population into a very large proportion of ethical people who oppose abortion by nonviolent means, and a miniscule proportion of unethical people who use violence to achieve their ends) would have fewer opportunities and a lot less time to intimidate them. Thus, the effect of the activities of the anti-abortion terrorists is asymmetrical, reducing the number of people willing to perform abortions much more quickly than the number of women seeking abortion, and therefore necessarily increasing number of abortions performed by those who are sufficiently courageous to continue to perform them.

    It is clear the existence of a few doctors like Dr. Tiller who became de facto professional abortionists, is a consequence of violent anti-abortion terrorists. Indeed, this could have been their strategy all along—intimidate those whom you can, using the law, using violence, and by enlisting the nonviolent ethical pro-life people to demonstrate and maintain pressure, and finally, to murder the few that remain.

I want to be clear here—I buy into some of this, but not all of this. And the question isn't whether or not you or I agree with this kind of thinking, it is whether or not there exists a self-consistent set of beliefs that includes a reasonable interpretation of the Christian faith, and still allows one to practice a livelihood that involves abortion. I believe there is. A related question is whether or not there exists a self-consistent set of beliefs that includes a reasonable interpretation of the Christian faith that permits an armed man to shoot and kill an unarmed man while he worships in church, because he is following a particular, lawful, profession that you object to. Or the same, for people who support and arm that man, and have foreknowledge of his intent. After all, the question of whether abortion is murder is something over which people of faith disagree. But the question of whether or not murder is murder should not admit the same kind of variation.

Can Dr. Tiller can be saved?

This is for God to decide, not us. Dr. Tiller was Lutheran, and presumably he believed that he passed the “faith by grace” test. I am reluctant to try to delve into the mind of God as a judge. I believe him to be merciful (and I sincerely hope that this applies to me as well as to Dr. Tiller), but we must remember Isaiah 55:8, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD,” and remember to be humble. So, in the worlds of Iris DeMent, I'll just “let the mystery be.”

A question for ethical pro-life readers...

Why do you shelter and nourish murders in your churches? How do you reconcile that with your Christianity? Why do you try to focus the issue on the man that was murdered, as if by doing so you could create a justification for righteous murder?

Peace

14 comments:

jh said...

this abortion thing
man
it is killing us
we have to figure something out
it can't just go on like this

i am amazed sometimes that people extend such logical derivations of thought toward this difficult problem and nothing ever seems to change all that much

i reject the multiplicity and variety of views argument
i know we all want to be holy and prudent
but there are the dictates of truth and some human truths are established to the point of being necessary...we must adhere to them
christians at least vow at some level to acknowledge the fact that god created everyone...god is the author...fine we can read...but we can't rewrite the text

i mean unless your'e using some sort of "passion" justification that the whole drama of a woman going through with an abortion is like the passion of jesus...she's actually making a sacrificial choice for everyone and might therefore even be honored for her bravery...again i'd say
the whole body of justification for abortion is founded in an explicit cowardice...as blatant as the blingbling in the navels of sexyfleshygirlwomen these days

it is silly to argue the point of the humanity of the fetus
really very very silly
simple logic
a fetus is a being
it possesses being or else
we wouldn't want to rid ourselves of it would we
so it has being or is a being
let's just say
a fetus be -s
for anyone to assume the principle that it is arguable says to me that the whole trajectory of scientific thinking in human biology is somehow phuqqed up

none of us are viable alone

now what sort of being is this fetus
i mean would a woman give birth to a dog
or a bunny
in every birth so human aren't we acknowledging the humanity of the newborn...is this something that just gets attached to the package in the last month of gestation

i stated in an older blog on kirby's stream that i can understand the conflict in a persons mind who feels strongly about abortion as a violation of the sanctity of human life...i can understand the people who live on the edge of patience whose passions are stirred in revulsion against the crime of abortion..yes crime (yes infanticide...fetus-cide)

i also said that dr tiller would not've been able to sit in a pew in a catholic church unless it was rather anonymously in some large cathedral somewhere...i know of no priest who would permit it

it is uncomfortable to think that that is a dividing line of faithfulness

being george tiller means you're dead
being his wife means you're grieving
being his killer means you're forever linked with the guy
(that would be a trial in itself in this life i may prefer the chair to that)
i leave the judgement of george's soul to god
but i reserve the earthly right to recognise him as a ruthless (or perhaps OK a benighted servant of death) murderer...don't give phlyin phuq what the law allows on this one

i'd much rather live in a world where i didn't have to worry about abortion doctors at all...where there was no category for them

there's some interesting logic in the understanding that goes -now that women have the right to kill every other right is compromised

the value of any life is either negligible or infinite invaluable

women don't own their bodies
they are given them to be stewards
wise stewards
there's putrid sophistry being used in its stead

j

Kirby Olson said...

Stewart, as per your last question, surely you must think that taking out Hitler would have been justifiable? Bonhoeffer did.

If pro-life people see abortion doctors as being Hitler-esque, which they do, then I think you have your answer.

I don't know if I would have had the courage to take out Hitler much less the finesse, but I do think that that would have been justifiable, don't you? (Hitler apparently survived at least 47 attempts on his life, several of which were mounted by Lutherans. None of them worked out. He had some kind of incredible survival instinct, and was always surrounded by vigilant guards.)

But if Tiller was regarded as a kind of mini-Hitler (I don't see him this way, but many did, and do), then perhaps you have your answer.

Unless you don't think it's justifiable to take out Hitler, or similar individuals.

stu said...

as per your last question, surely you must think that taking out Hitler would have been justifiable? Bonhoeffer did.

As I recall, this was a decision that tortured Bonhoeffer. He was fine with ordinary resistance, but crossing the line to involvement in a plot to kill Hitler was very hard. And truth be told, I don't know as I've ever heard a very coherent explanation of exactly what his role was

To compare Tiller to Hitler is obscene. Tiller, maybe aborted 60K, but as your arithmetic points out, there is reason to highly skeptical about that number. Deaths in the European Theater, both military and civilian, totaled roughly 45M, so Hilter's actions resulted in the death of roughly 750x as many people, even if we attribute the 60K number to Tiller.

Moreover, Hitler was in a situation where he controlled the judiciary, and therefore there was no hope for an independent review and check on his action. So far as I know, the judiciary of this country remains independent and effective, and certainly it was never particularly beholden to Mr. Tiller. It was certainly possible for Bonhoeffer to analyze the situation, and decide that there was no other mechanism that could check Hitler. That was never the case here.

Here's a reality check -- the number of civilian deaths in Iraq caused by Mr. Bush's war has been estimated by independent groups at between 150K and 1.3M. Even the Iraqi government, which has good reasons for underestimating civilian deaths, claims 91K. Yet I'm not aware of anyone who thinks that the assassination of Mr. Bush would be a morally defensible act. Trial for war crimes, sure -- that's almost mainstream these days. After all, in a trial, you can mount a defense, you can hire the best available lawyers to support you, you can call witnesses, and your fate is in the hands of independent people who are charged and train to assess the evidence. If you are innocent, you can reasonably hope for exoneration. In an assassination/murder, none of these protections are in place.

Kirby Olson said...

I didn't compare Tiller to Hitler. I just said that if you did do that, you might want to take him out. That's the logic, I think.

But it's not very good logic, and I'm not condoning it by any means.

But the people who do these things are rarely logicians, or heads of math departments. The Unibomber, I guess, was an exception to this general rule.

Ted K. had a huge IQ, was a very good mathematician, and he took out some people based on a thin thread of logic that he put into the Manifesto.

I think killers should get out more and mix. That's usually the problem. But then, nobody wants to mix with them, which makes them more murderous.

The guys who do these things are almost invariably loners.

Hitler of course was not a loner. He had a huge support staff and was popular in his own Reich. So he could get a lot more killing done.

But I think you're misapplying logic to this problem. You think people shouldn't logically kill abortion doctors.

It's like feminists trying to educate the whole country not to rape women. And all the educated people already know that.

It's the creeps that do that, who by definition cannot be reached through logic.

Logic is a limited tool.

You have to have a mother's love, and a support network, and some basic decency. Then you don't kill people.

But you can try to reason with the whole world if you want. It's just not reasonable to do that in this instance. Nobody who has an ounce of intellect supports murdering abortion doctors. Don't tell me about Ann Coulter.

She has maybe a half ounce, but she's just stirring the pot, like any other media maven.

stu said...

I didn't compare Tiller to Hitler. I just said that if you did do that, you might want to take him out.

What you said is, "If pro-life people see abortion doctors as being Hitler-esque, which they do...," and I pointed out that this is an obscene comparison, and outside of the reasonable bounds of debate, not merely what Hitler did was of an entirely different scale, and not merely because there is deep moral division over the ethicality of Dr. Tiller's activity, but most significantly because Bonhoeffer and his compatriots were without alteratives, whereas there are viable legal alternatives available to the anti-abortion terrorists.

You can't say that you were forced to do something when you have viable choices. And these terrorists and those who support them had choices.

That's the logic, I think.

But it's not very good logic, and I'm not condoning it by any means.


I appreciate the distinction.

But I think you're misapplying logic to this problem. You think people shouldn't logically kill abortion doctors.

I think that killing abortion doctors is morally reprehensible. I don't expect killers to work this through, but I do expect that moral agents such as the Roman Catholic Church will work this through. In this case, it does not appear to me that they have.

And indeed this case was made worse -- much worse -- because it involved the descration of sacred space. I expect that the Catholic Church at least to be sensitive to this issue -- it has happened to them to, with Archbishop Oscar Romero as a notable recent example. But their outrage is reserved for the Doctor, and they ignore the offense to the Lord. Instead they are so blinded by their focus on abortion that they've forgotten that there are superior moral issues at stake in this. They have now aligned themselves with those who would profane the altar, but pretend it doesn't matter because it's not their altar. What they forget is that there are not Catholic altars and Lutheran altars, but only the Lord's altars. I pray that they will awaken.

jh said...

stu
i don't suppose i represent the majority of the opinion on abortion in the catholic church

i made no judgment on the murder in teh church
it simply occured to me as amazing right there on pentecost sunday in front of god mabel and everyone
it wouldn't happen in a catholic church unless someone was really getting away with something

although at the height of the sex scandal publicity two monks were shot dead in a church in missouri
they guy killed hisself as well

i'm willing to go on line here and say
being an abortion doctor should be considered dangerous a dangerous occupation

there are intense long arduous sessions of petitionary prayer happening for interecession for the medical people involved for the woman involved for the father for the person in the womb...i sit back and i admire those people who do the all night vigils with the blessed sacrament for an end to the violence in the womb
it's a very catholic thing
when those people pray the rosary it actual gets a little spooky they are intense and intent

a lot of bishops went public in kansas and nebraska and oklahoma nd dakotah condemning the murder of tiller
i guess i'm just a lot more callous
i just shrug my soldiers and go
ho ho hum
what's next
and i am far more empathetic at this point for the killer of tiller the guy in jail awaiting life or death

should we kill the guy???

i say absolutely not

put him in minimum security for the rest of his life and call it good

if christ did anything he undid a strict interpretation of
an eye for an eye

if tilller is in hell he will have to endure the sound of 60'000 crying babies for eternity

sorry
that may be too dante-esque

pax

j

Kirby Olson said...

Stuart, I didn't realize Catholics had in a sense condoned the murder. I didn't realize this. That's what I take from your post here.

I didn't think anyone condoned it.

Murder is a pretty dumb trick.

Apparently in spite of all the shows about clever murders, most people who resort to murder are dumb clucks who lack creativity, lack other means of response.

They should read Kierkegaard, I guess, and figure out some other ways to murder people with a phrase. Kierkegaard was brilliant at this.

He could turn a phrase into a mountain lion, and scoop out your insides, leaving you seemingly intact, but having stolen your whole value system.

That's why I think literature is still so important. It shows you other ways to get people.

I'm too tired to qualify that. But the word "get" has a hundred senses at least.

Anyone who kills another person is a dummy.

You can usually talk your way through something instead.

I, for instance, have never even hit another person. There is no need to ever do that if you have even half of a brain.

I have about a half of one.

stu said...

it wouldn't happen in a catholic church unless someone was really getting away with something

What was Romero getting away with? Caring for the poor? Yes, I guess there is precedent for killing unrepentant sinners like that.

The Benedictine monks in Missouri? Their killer was evidently deranged, at least from news accounts. What were they getting away with? Bending their hips when they kneeled? Chanting a quarter-tone flat?

i'm willing to go on line here and say
being an abortion doctor should be considered dangerous a dangerous occupation


Ah, so you agree with the notion that we should simply defer to terrorists? Because there is nothing intrinsic in the occupation makes it more dangerous than other medical occupations. The incremental danger comes from terrorists who have been incited by language like "Tiller, the baby killer." The occupation is dangerous because the Catholic Church and like minded organizations have chosen to make it dangerous. If the Catholic Church's teachings on abortion have been Christ-like, please point out to me the chapter and verse where Jesus suggests that tax-collectors are a great evil, who should be resisted by all possible means (wink, nudge).

To paraphrase a great orator, "Murdering people in church is not how moral authority is claimed; it's how moral authority is surrendered." To say that the Catholic Church condoned murder as an institution goes too far. But to say that the Catholic Church chose not to couple its moral teachings on abortion with an emphasis on importance of a nonviolent resistance to evil does not. As this was a choice -- the easiest prediction in the world to make is that things that have happened repeated before will happen again. Other abortion doctors were murdered, yet the Catholic Church did not adjust its teaching so as to discourage violence.

The moral advantage is surrendered.

should we kill the guy??? [referring to Tiller's killer]

Of course not. But neither should we assume he worked alone when there is clear evidence that he coordinated with senior members of Operation Rescue. Roll up the cell -- he shouldn't be lonely in prison.

if tilller is in hell he will have to endure the sound of 60'000 crying babies for eternity

sorry
that may be too dante-esque


I don't recall vengeance fantasies as playing a major role in Christ's teaching. He was content to just leave it at "woe." It's not that it's too Dante-esque, it's that it's insufficiently Christ-like. My opinion, of course.

Peace

jh said...

i think it is crystal chandelier clear in the writings of john paul II that all violence and most certainly retribution violence must not be condoned under any moral code...he directed this thought to all political movements with violence within the selfunderstanding of such groups...even to earthfirsters

but i think the vigilante mentality amongst abortion people is a neccesary cultural deterent...making capital punishment a public jurisdiction

i mean if people are going to be free
guns must be available

i'm simply amazed stu that you're so dang defensive about the abortion doctor and i've not read one word of sympathy for the guy who shot him
how do you feel about that living soul is there still some grace left for him...i mean he's alive....i mean the next step of justice is something perhaps we can really do something about

my sense amongst the cognizenti of abortion politics in the catholic church is that yes they have adopted a tacit policy of live and let die toward the medical community...they see the enraged piety in the eyes of the catholic (and primarily the evangelical) faithful who take this cause on as a raison d'etre...i suppose the pastors should say from the pulpit
hey don't go shoot any abortion doctors today but i suspect in many churches that would be received with a sort of derisive laughter...a sort of ...yeah sure father whatever you say

and what i don't get the sense of at all from you stu is the acknowledgement of the reality of the human being...the fetus as a human being...you cannot refer to it as any other sort of being

it's sort of like iraq in a sense remember when the war was over there...and then they did every thing they could do not call it a war anymore....i think that's something we are dealing with on this issue...for it is a war...violence is part of the rhetoric...each side must come to terms with the limits to which they are willing to go for what they believe...it's fair warfare out there like in love when it is fair there is nothing so fair as the fairness of love and war...but a war has started and the enemies are in sight and there will be no backing down on this one

there is no evidence whatsoever that the children killed in the womb could not have contributed wonderfully to our society...in one sense we've been robbed as well

so is life so tragically desperate here on earth that we can simply sanction the luxury of abortion for women...if we speak of a large group mind and we look at it as feminine and it has in it this "freedom" to violently end human life in the womb then i think we're looking at a tragic and frightening level of moral decay...you know the girls might as well be holding up the little bloody aborted fetuses in public with lurid grins on their faces and say see see see see see what we can do look eveyone at the level to which i am willing to go...hey hey hey who can match this...hey hey

when people start talking in terms of compassionate murder i get a little nervous

i know my guitar is out of tune but please don't pull that trigger buddy

there's a nice article on slate
tiller's killer

i could not be in the same room with someone whom i know has performed an abortion selfrighteously i doubt i could be in a room with a woman who selfrighteously defends her actions in killing a child unborn

there is terrible uncleanness there

j

stu said...

but i think the vigilante mentality amongst abortion people is a neccesary cultural deterent...making capital punishment a public jurisdiction

So you favor vigilantism, terrorism, whatever you want to call it?

I suspect that by the time this matter is concluded, there will be major embarrassment for the Catholic Church.

i mean if people are going to be free
guns must be available


This is a different debate. My feeling is that we've fallen into an artificial trap in this country w.r.t. gun laws, in not recognizing that the situation of the big cities is significantly different from the situation of more rural areas. The big cities need more restrictive gun laws, or else ordinary human friction will feedback into an increased murder rate. Rural areas need less restrictive gun laws, because help is further away. The problem is that people are unwilling to consider laws that are context sensitive.

i'm simply amazed stu that you're so dang defensive about the abortion doctor and i've not read one word of sympathy for the guy who shot him
how do you feel about that living soul is there still some grace left for him...i mean he's alive....i mean the next step of justice is something perhaps we can really do something about


As for Dr. Tiller, Lutheran's don't pray for the dead. They're in God's hands, and beyond our petitions. As for the living...

I wish the murderer long life for the consideration and repentance of his sin (even though this is exactly what he took from Dr. Tiller), and I pray that God will judge him with mercy. Unfortunately, I think it is all too likely that he will continue to listen to the people who encouraged him to murder in the first place, and imagining himself to be a martyr hero, will live believing himself to be assured of salvation.

and what i don't get the sense of at all from you stu is the acknowledgement of the reality of the human being...the fetus as a human being...you cannot refer to it as any other sort of being

Then you're not reading what I've written. I favor policies that minimize human suffering, and yes, I am willing to include abortion as something that can cause (and relieve) human suffering. As regards the later, I am thinking more of ectopic pregnancies and their ilk than anything else.

I'd like to see abortions used only to minimize human suffering. In such a scenario, I expect the abortion rate to be significantly less than it is now, but not zero. As a practical matter, this involves teaching respect for humanity and sexuality. It also means effective education regarding the all modes of contraception, which the Catholic Church opposes. It also means creating a social system in which people who seek work can find work that is both fulfilling and sustaining.

So the underlying problem is this. If the optimum is not zero, who gets to decide? I believe that the mother is the best choice.

So in my opinion, the problem with the status quo isn't abortion law, it's everything else -- inadequate moral and sexual education, inadequate options for women who do carry their children to term, inadequate resolve on the part of fathers to meet their obligations to their children and the women who carry them, irrespective of the legal relationship that holds between them, inadequate resolve on the part of society to identify fathers who do not meet their responsibilities, and compel them to do so, etc.

And what do I see the Catholic Church doing in this? Some good moral teaching, encouraging defective sex education, providing guidance and structure for women who are willing to give their children up for adoption, and encouraging murder.

That's a pretty ambivalent record, and not at all a Christ-like one.

jh said...

ouch
we don't encourage murder
we simply know it happens

there's a pretty healthy body of catholic women who are completely in the know as to the affairs of the world and the church in these matters..i trust their thinking...women like janet e smith

i don't favor vigilantism or terrorism i simply see these things as elements in the cultural drama inevitable elements...i myself would never hunt someone down and i can't get near firecrackers for fear
i simply know there are some pretty intense people in the world and they have strong feelings about some matters and they get going on a bad day and doctors die in church
i think the scene is somehow iconic like an old west showdown taken to the nth degree
but i think the evidence shows that being an abortion doctor is dangerous
i think they should have the doctors sign off on that saying Yes we know this is dangerous we know some people are admant and they own guns and that performing aboritions could lead to murder
YOUR MURDER

like the warnings on cigarettte packages
it could blip up on the computer screen a few times a year just to remind

the church through the rachel project bestows about as much forgiveness as anyone could possibly give to women who have gone the direction of abortion....and i think the goal of really providing for any woman in trouble to the point of giving her a relatively care free life for a few years while attending to motherhood...is something diocesan programs try to cultivate

and were i a priest i know that christ's love is there for any one with sorrow in the heart

i just think the whole humanist manifestation of human management as it plays itself out in modern medicine has something diabolical about it...something kind of sick

on matters of life the church offers the language of imperative but opens always the door of mercy in human failure
but it must be seen as a failure

i mean simply mastering the technology and making things safe does not constitute moral progress

my point is and will always be to highlight the utterly grotesque character of the process of abortion...the whole drama from makin love in the alley to marching to the clinic for the big A...it all just baffles me...humans will be humans but this does not negate the importance for a high moral challenge in life

i think the women need some hardcore serious education on this deal
i mean they need some philosophical bearings not just feminism

for me the spectacle of a culture with women walking around who advocate womb pillaging is more macabre than anyone ever imagined more macabre than hitchcock more macabre than mary poppins (o sorry that just slipped out)i meant david lynch

my sense is at least for myself that i've reached a point of relative exhasution on this matter i mean i could go on and on if baited i could take this to th nth degree i could make everyone nauseous with my extended life life life diatribe...but i'll just stop here...but if you would ever like another variation on my attitude on this topic don't hesitate to ask

j

stu said...

jh --

In a way we both got baited into this. Kirby asked a question that amounted to "How could Dr. Tiller reconcile his occupation with his Christianity?" It is a very reasonable question, and I tried to sketch out an answer, while noting that the position I described is different in important ways from mine. And from there, things followed a predictable path.

I would like to find some peace in this, even if agreement is beyond us at this time.

Please understand that I have great respect for the Catholic Church, even though I find certain of its current policies to be somewhere between reckless and ill-advised.

I am absolutely terrified that we are facing a Malthusian crisis, if not in my lifetime, then certainly in my children's. I care a lot about my children, and am humiliated by the state of the world that I'll be leaving them.

I've read that we are current extracting 4x the sustainable resources of the planet (the excess being driven by the extraction of fossil fuels). Whether this is true in detail or not, I seriously doubt that the planet can long sustain the number of people it now holds. We've seen Malthusian crises in Rwanda, Eritrea, and Darfur. Haiti can't be far behind. What happens when this becomes world-wide? I expect that the US will be o.k., assuming internal transportation doesn't collapse (not an entirely safe assumption). But what of Bengladesh? Japan? India? North Korea? Don't expect the later three to sit back and starve quietly. We wouldn't, and won't if it comes to it.

The mathematics are daunting. The higher the world population is going into the crisis, the lower it will be coming out. If it is high enough, extinction is a real possibility. Humanae Vitae is a recipe for a high initial population. Natural family planning might have been adequate two generations ago, before the great advances in medicine, to avoid significant population growth. It is no longer. And avoiding growth is no longer good enough. We need a managed reduction in population, world-wide.

Making love is making war, if conception ensures.

As regards abortion, I believe that the Catholic Church is pursuing an all-or-nothing strategy that has a high probability of resulting in nothing. A relatively small amount of flexibility could result in a much more effective voice, and a very high probability of a large reduction in the number of abortions on a short time scale, and a much better chance that humanity will survive the global crisis that is now all but inevitable.

I believe that the Catholic Church has invested far too much energy into abortion, leaving far more pressing social and moral questions without its effective voice, at a time when we most need it. Worse, it's tacit approval of violence within the anti-abortion movement (as distinct from the pro-life movement) has reduced its moral treasure, as the larger crisis approaches.

Peace.

jh said...

don't you think malthus was a victim of his own pessimism
i mean he didn't trust humankind to work itself out of a wet paper bag

there's probably 4 times as many people now as there were when he was writing and the planet is doing OK i mean there are some nervous areas but by and large people are doing OK....we could learn to do agricualture better and distribute food with more efficiency...and maybe if we learn to do just those two things the planet could sustain twice again as many people....be fruitful and multiply was and is a commandment...if life would just slow down people could have more babies...i'm all for people having babies....babies give the world some hope....babies ask only to be fed and protected....i say bring back organic romance and make babies the good ole fashioned way

stu your sharpened criticism hits like dull arrows against the immense doors of st peters basilica
the church invests its time and money in the arena of life it bets on life...not on the management of life but life itself..to be a good steward of life is to hold all things dear - especially the gift of life

pray to forgive the church orphanage neurotics and pray for the victims one and all...rene girard pray for us

j

stu said...

don't you think malthus was a victim of his own pessimism
i mean he didn't trust humankind to work itself out of a wet paper bag


As I said, we've seen local Mathusian crises already. Technological improvements to agriculture have made a huge difference. Yet consider -- the improvements come from increased use of fertilizer and mechanization, both of which (at least a present) rely on fossil fuels, which in turn contribute to global warming, as well as the increased use of irrigation.

We're producing a lot of food right now, but we're also using a lot of land that really isn't suited to farming to do it.

I've spoken to physicists and climate scientists who claim that we're all but committed to a 5 C increase in average global temperatures. At that point, we have to use extensive irrigation in the great plains.

Moreover, the need to increase agricultural productivity has come at the cost of the corn-syrup monoculture, which leads to obesity, diabetes, and other health concerns.

there's probably 4 times as many people now as there were when he was writing and the planet is doing OK

Is the planet doing o.k.? There are lots of serious warning signs out there.

and maybe if we learn to do just those two things the planet could sustain twice again as many people....

And if it did, would you be satisfied then, or would you say

be fruitful and multiply was and is a commandment...

And my point is that with a world population of 6.7 billion, we've more than multiplied. If this is not the limit, what is? Your arguments seem based on the notion that every limit is ephemeral.