Commenting on Liturgy, jh suggested that 1st Corinthians 11 might have been more appropriate than 1st Corinthians 9 as a scriptural basis for discussion variation in worship practices. Although I continue to prefer 1st Corinthians 9 in this context, he does have a point.
Rather than dig straight into 1st Corinthians 11, I'd like to introduce a standard Lutheran concept, adiaphora (ἀδιάφορα), or matters of indifference, because I think it frames two distinct and essential tensions in this discussion. Adiaphora is the principle that doctrine should restrict itself to matters that are necessary for salvation. To which a confessionally literate Lutheran would instinctively add “and good order,” perfect proof, as if proof were needed, that the Lutheran confessions were written by Germans.
The pro-diversity side of this issue, represented by my original post, wants to use every tool available to bring people to Christ. For example, our faith does not mandate salvation by organ music. It does not prohibit guitars, bluegrass, or jazz, or even Ibo drums. Adiaphora constrains us not to turn instrumental preferences into doctrinal roadblocks.
The anti-division side, represented by jh's comment, and where 1st Corinthians 11 finds application, is that diversity in practice can create and sustain divisions in belief. And Christian unity is not a matter of indifference.
I hope that I am not forcing words into jh's mouth. In any event, I'm eager to concede both points that I ascribe to him in the preceding paragraph. So from my perspective, the question becomes one of accommodating as much diversity as possible while providing for mechanisms that create and sustain unity in belief. But I'm not confident that jh would be comfortable within such a framework, because the Roman Catholic Church does not accept a parsimony principle such as adiaphora to limit the scope of its doctrine.
Christian unity is important, not easy.
Peace
15 comments:
wee katlicks use
the working dictum of tomas d'aquino
in matters essential ;DOCTRINE WORSHIP let us be united
in matters inessential :WHO GETS TO DO WHAT WHEN ETC : let us be charitable
that we pray is essential how we pray is always negotiable
which sounds like adiaphora
it doesn't always play out that way
oftentimes in recent years various groups have confused the two
some groups put their agenda across as it these were essential to the life of the church like womens ordination but these people refuse to see the truth of the matter their agenda is really negligible...they even take the doctrine to task most often with little substance of thought to hold them up...they's about writin they's own doctrine
j
> which sounds remarkably like adiaphora
Remarkably so, although the details matter. In particular, the Catholic position is that doctrine is essential (what else would doctrine be?), and prior to the application of Aquinas's test. Still, I'm inclined to take this hopefully.
The ordination of women is a topic that our churches currently differ over. I suspect our opinions reflect the churches to which we belong.
I will say this much, for now. I've had married pastors, and life-long single pastors. I've had male pastors, and female pastors. I've valued each, and I've appreciated their diversity of witness to shared beliefs. It has seemed to me that each has an authentic call, and each has served faithfully to that call. If this was not of God, then there would be no authentic call to women to take on ordained ministry.
i think we all have the call to be pastoral and it needn't be ordained
there needn't be robes and tapping on the head with a sword for pastors...some acknowledgement within the community but it really is just humble service...and it holds the world together and many people do it....the priest does secret magic tricks on the altar that nobody can know about and this is important it is so secretive so mysterious so unthinkably odd that it can only be entrusted to people proven to be almost incapable of violating the mystery...o sure there are some failures but we either imprison them or make them objects of possible danger with the mafia...so i must say it is a guy thing and the girls can't know it or know about it it's sort of like the club house i had with my neighborhood pals no girls allowed...ah what's the use...nobody will ever understand
you seem to want to be in the perfect forest where the ground is all level but the catholics believe in a natural hierarchy...and we've cultivated an admirable corruption within it all a sort of corruption that gets bad press but is woefully misunderstood..it is the complete acceptance of human beings as human beings but it looks like a social illness i'm sure...so that's all there is to it... i think the girls should make up their own little ritual life but focus it completely on the womans natural physiology and nothing else...no hairbrained hyper primitive spiritual crap...just basic feminine body science
all the protestants will be required to learn to pray the rosary on their KNEES!!!
j
jh -- You are forgetting that Martin Luther was ordained a priest while still an Augustinian monk, and that many other German Catholic priests (but no bishops -- we had to wait on the Swedes for that) became Lutheran at the time of the Reformation. And since the split, there's been a continuing slow exchange of clergy between Catholics, Anglicans, and Lutherans. So our clergy know about the magic bits, too, and remain reasonably well informed about the latest updates :-).
And we have, as I'm sure the Catholic Church must, a rigorous discernment process for vetting those who present themselves to the Church as called to ordained ministry. I won't say that our discernment process has a perfect track record, but it has been very good.
What do I want? I want the Kingdom of God to prosper. We're all given gifts, and some are called to a life of word and sacrament (to use the Lutheran formula that describes the particular rights and responsibilities of the ordained). I think this is distinct from a general call to have an active ministry. In particular, I hear the later, general call to active participation in the Kingdom of God, but not the former, specifically clerical call. Of course, it can be dangerous to generalize too much from one's own experience, but since there are a couple hundred folks in the pews to every guy or gal in funny robes up front, I feel reasonably comfortable in doing so in this case.
I assume that the Holy Spirit gives us gifts in proportion to our needs, and that to reject certain gifts is to risk underperforming in the area to which they were intended to apply.
> all the protestants will be required to learn to pray the rosary on their KNEES!!!
This would have been a useful skill to have had last week, when I went to the wake of the mother of a Catholic colleague. She wanted me to kneel with her and pray. I was fine on the Lord's Prayer, but I had to drop out for the rest, simply because I didn't know it.
i don't forget anything about luther i know what he was he was a madman he was a lute player he was burdened with a romantic heart he simmply wanted to be a poet...you know when he abandoned the augustinians he abandoned the knowledge the working knowledge of how liturgy works and how it works well particularly in an urban setting...he got so caught up in the political issues that he forgot to pay attention to the very basic kind of day by day activity of charity and grace going on in so many churches...and while i am willing to concede to the importance of many of martins' gripes i think that break with liturgy started a ball rolling that has just gotten crazyer..so it's been a long serious series of largely unsuccessful efforts at restoring something or imitating or mimicking something on the part of the various breakaway communities...and i'm not stating that everything that has come about in the fracturing has been bad some good hymns some good theology...but i think those in the traditional line of formal ecclesial protest do get bogged down in unconscious factionalism or sometimes some not so unconscious factionalism...and it foments a sort of righteousness that is woefully unfounded...god is bigger than the church i do declare but while we're here it seems only just that the line of continuity no matter how subject to criticism as to the way in which it has been carried forth still resides on the side to the best way for everyone...getting to the gate is a matter of significant negotiation...like this long narrowing path where traffic jams are bound to happen but the gate will be open...i think the lutheran surrealist states somehow time and again that the two kingdom doctrine is the only just philosophy for working out the details and agendas of church life...but the catholic church operates on the principle that the kingdom of god is at work within us in our structures in our practice in our servants...and that our work is to reflect that constant day by day awareness of christ working in our midst...primarily in the liturgy...but by no means only or particularly there
so i think that is important to note
we do do a sort of
here but not yet acknowledgment
but in principle we worship with the attitude that this is it we are in it the communion of saints is with us the glory of god is being acknowledged...even old ladies with rosaries manifest this in a generally unspoken way but it is there as a way of bracing against the world and as a way of responding hopefully with the charity taught to us by him
him three(d)
and one always
personally
j
jh -- we can take up the virtues and flaws of Brother Martin later. I'd like to stay focused on the liturgy proper.
I've taken a look at the Roman Catholic liturgy, as presented here. Please let me know if this source is in great error.
The differences between Roman Catholic liturgy, and the ELCA Holy Communion liturgy (i.e., our standard Sunday worship service) are remarkably slight.
1. We do the confession before the the processional. The confessional language is similar but not identical, and although the Lutheran's don't invoke Mary within the confession, our version still contrives to be a bit longer. Brother Martin took sin and confession very seriously.
2. Our equivalent of the Rite of Blessing and Sprinkling Holy Water is a rarely used option (and not an alternative to Confession/Penance, which is always used).
3. We use a different form of the Kyrie, which is a bit more elaborate than the RC analog. But it is still a sung, responsive prayer, and the congregation's response is "Lord have mercy" to all but the final petition, for which the response is "Amen, Amen." In recent years, the Kyrie is often omitted during the (long) green season after Pentacost.
4. The ELCA equivalent to the Gloria has two options. One is word-for-word identical to the RC equivalent; the other -- This is the feast -- is a hymn of celebration of communion, built around the image of Christ as the Lamb who was slain, etc.
5. The only difference I can find in the liturgy of the word is that we typically sing a hymn after the sermon/homily.
6. LIke you, we use either the Nicene or Apostle's Creed. My reading of the rubric is that we use the Apostle's Creed a bit more frequently as an option to the Nicene Creed than you do.
7. The Lutheran Service places the "passing of the peace" between intercessions and the offering, instead of within the Communion section.
8. There are some minor rearrangements in the Communion section. Our Preface (the equivalent, I believe, of your Eucharistic Prayer) comes between the Preface Dialog and the Sanctus. We place the Words of Institution (optionally embedded in a longer prayer) immediately after the Sanctus. We attach the "kingdom, power, and glory" directly to the Lord's Prayer. In my congregation, we've added a general invitation to all who are baptized believe that Jesus Christ is truly present in the bread and wine to participate. Lutherans always offer both elements. Distribution may involve intinction, common cup, or individual cups, depending on the individual congregation (and sometimes, the particular service).
9. Lutheran Churches usually do announcements immediately before or after service, rather than within it.
The shear number of words I used to describe differences probably presents a misleading impression -- you really have to look at the two side-by-side. The feeling is that they differ even less than the NRSV and NJB -- we would use a lot of words to describe the differences between those two, but the similarities would swamp the differences.
I'm really at a loss to understand what you think we've lost liturgically.
whereever it is possible mass happens everyday
there is this primary attention
we give to the eucharist
it is reserved in a tabernacle
reverenced
i guess it is about availability for
piety for veneration
that the church is a place where someone can come in and pray
where mass may be happening
where you're always in the presence the knowledgable presence of christ
the atmosphere of vigil and ritual is a reality not simply a social function
structurally i am in agreement with you i know cardinal kaspar after attending a joint liturgy with "separate" communion commented that the essential attitude is so close as to be nearly indistinguishible and that is perhaps what we are talking about...the truth is in the detail
the belief that the presence of christ is a reality in the sacrament and that that has effective grace as a result for those partaking as it were
and it happens every day with the same cycle of readings around the world so we keep this word connection going as well every day
this biggest division as i see it is in the honesty behind the split in the first place the division happened but some slight matter of essential life in the church was misappropriated for lack of a better term
at least now we shake hands
used to be we couldn't darken the doorway of a lutheran church for fear of satans claw
i'm slow in the cyber world these days
i like your provacative and even style
an interesting line of inquiry in this year of paul just now coming to an end for us mackerel slappers
thanks for helping me think through some of paul's insights in a new way
j
jh --
> whereever it is possible mass happens everyday
> there is this primary attention
> we give to the eucharist
At the time of the split, Luther was very concerned about what he saw as misapplication of the mass. His objection wasn't to the regular masses that were performed for the benefit of the people, but rather to private masses that were bought and paid for. He treasured the mass, and did not think it was seemly that it was sold. Instead, he desired that it be celebrated regularly and often as a part of the life of the congregation.
Within this country, as I'm sure you know, there was a strong anti-Catholic movement in the 18th and 19th century. Lutherans at the time, employing a style of worship that was distinguishable from Catholic worship only in that it employed the vernacular, felt a need to distance themselves from the Catholics, and in consequence went from Communion as an essential element of a worship service to an occasional element. In most congregations, this meant monthly; in some, quarterly. This was not our proudest moment.
For a variety of reasons, this began to change in the 70's, and by the 90's the great majority of congregations had returned to weekly communion, returning to the traditional practice of the Lutheran Church. Beyond this, Lutheran Pastors bring communion (from elements consecrated at weekly worship) to shut-ins. I've been privileged to observe this from both ends -- as a visitor, and as someone visited. I'm sure it will come as no surprise to you that this is usually the climax of the visit, and is greatly valued by all.
My sense of Lutheranism is that our churches would offer communion more often if our people gathered for regular worship more often. Within this culture, that seems unlikely, although my congregation will be experimenting with Thursday evening services this year, trying to provide a worship opportunity for those whose weekend plans will take them away from our community. Of course, communion will be a part of that Thursday service.
> it is reserved in a tabernacle
> reverenced
> i guess it is about availability for
> piety for veneration
Lutheran sensibilities are different. Piety we understand, and piety is certainly a part of our experience. But we don't use physical objects (the reserved host, relics, etc.) as objects of veneration -- it strikes us as perilously close to idolatry. I believe that today Catholics (I'm emphasizing the laity here, but of course this applies to other orders as well) are well informed, and the object is understood to be a symbol and reminder of what truly deserves our veneration, the persons of the triune God. I dare say that Lutheran sensibilities are embedded in Luther's criticisms of the Catholic Church, as it was manifest in the Germany of the late 15th and early 16 century. Certainly, the people (and even priests) of that time and place are far less educated than their modern contemporaries.
> that the church is a place where someone
> can come in and pray
This is true for us, too.
> where mass may be happening
But probably not this, unless you've wandered into a regular service.
> where you're always in the presence the
> knowledgable presence of christ
This is true, no matter where you go. Omnipresence, right? But I take your point that we are more attuned to Christ's presence in some places than in others. That's why our sanctuaries are reserved for worship, and we limit the activities that take place within them to those that are consonant with them as spaces dedicated to worship.
> the atmosphere of vigil and ritual is
> a reality not simply a social function
You'll get no argument from me on this.
> structurally i am in agreement with
> you i know cardinal kaspar after attending
> a joint liturgy with "separate" communion
> commented that the essential
> attitude is so close as to be nearly
> indistinguishible and that is perhaps
> what we are talking about...the truth
> is in the detail
> the belief that the presence of christ
> is a reality in the sacrament and that
> that has effective grace as a result
> for those partaking as it were
> and it happens every day with the same
> cycle of readings around the world
> so we keep this word connection going
> as well every day
I am hopeful that we are close enough in our understanding of the Eucharist to make intercommunion at least a theoretical possibility. Are our hearts large enough to make it an actual reality? I think that the answer will eventually be "yes," but it's going to take time, good will, and patience.
I'll note that the Lutheran and Catholic churches use the same Sunday lectionary readings, even if we do get out of sync for a few weeks between Corpus Christi and Reformation Sunday ;-). The Christian Church is bigger than any of our institutions.
> this biggest division as i see it is
> in the honesty behind the split in the
> first place the division happened but
> some slight matter of essential life in
> the church was misappropriated for lack
> of a better term
The reformers did not want the split. My sense of things (yours probably is different) is that many (but not all) of the reforms that Luther sought have been implemented by the Catholic Church in the years since: worship in the vernacular, proper theological education of priests, bishops who live lives of service to their flock, etc. There are a few things where we look at the present Catholic Church with consternation and concern -- the resurgence of indulgences is a notable example. But my sense is that our churches are closer in practice and belief than at any time since the reformation. May this convergence continue.
> at least now we shake hands
> used to be we couldn't darken the
> doorway of a lutheran church for fear of
> satans claw
We are much more alike than different. And I believe that are far more threatened by common challenges of today than we were ever threatened by one another.
> i'm slow in the cyber world these days
> i like your provacative and even style
> an interesting line of inquiry in this
> year of paul just now coming to an end
> for us mackerel slappers
>
> thanks for helping me think through
> some of paul's insights in a new way
Many thanks for your support and participation. Blogs are funny things -- they seem individualistic, but in reality are relevant and interesting only to the extent that they serve and respond to a community.
the thing about indulgences is that catholic people want them it's not just a way for priests to make money
people believe in the sanctifying power of the mass even after the fact of death the soul we believe still perhaps on its journey to oneness in god benefits by the prayers of intenetion it is a way of recognizing the inherent power of the liturgy...and like i say people like to give money to the church and they invest in the understanding that worship has its effects in this life and in the life we hope to attain...i was worshipping with some catholics in a little church in arizona and some wise lady knew i was there and she through a prayer source arranged to have the mass offered in honor of my deceased brother it came as complete surprise but it was very touching and one of the things that is not uncommon in our practice..all the dinerio washed clean por dios
how to use the things of this world and snactify them in the using
that's a great idea
j
snactify
sounds like preritual hors d'oevres
j
> the thing about indulgences
> is that catholic people want them
The Lutheran question would be, why? Why do they want them? It must be because they are believed to be efficacious. Why do they believe that? Presumably, because the church is telling them that indulgences are efficacious. You can't run a marketing campaign, and then claim that you're just supplying an intrinsic demand.
The word that underlies repentance/penance in the Greek texts is "μετάνοια," which means "change," as in "altering one's mind," not as in "silver coins." [This is intended to be humorous, not as fighting words!]
> it's not just a way for priests
> to make money
No. But here is a case where it seems to Lutherans that money is being extracted for the Church by manipulation. I want to be clear here -- I'm not against people giving money to the church. Priests have to eat, church buildings have to be maintained, etc. Ministry is not free, and it is right that people support it generously. But that support should be honestly sought, and the fears and ignorance of the laity ought not be exploited. Just ends can be achieved only by just means.
> people believe in the sanctifying power
> of the mass even after the fact of death
> the soul we believe still perhaps on its
> journey to oneness in god benefits by
> the prayers of intenetion
Here there is a difference. Lutherans don't pray for the dead -- they are with God. We pray for their family, and others left behind. I'm not sure that this is so much a theological difference as a philosophical one.
> it is a way of recognizing the inherent
> power of the liturgy...
Here I think you are referring not to indulgences generally, but rather to the practice of private masses (which can be thought of as a form of indulgence, but raise other issues specifically because of the sacramental character of the eucharist). Here, I would not deny the power of the liturgy, instead, I would ask whether or not God's purposes for the eucharist are being honored in private masses.
> and like i say people like to give money
> o the church and they invest in the
> understanding that worship has its effects
> in this life and in the life we hope to
> attain...
No argument here. And so it is with us.
> i was worshipping with some catholics
> in a little church in arizona and some
> wise lady knew i was there and she
> through a prayer source arranged to
> have the mass offered in honor of my
> deceased brother it came as complete
> surprise but it was very touching and
> one of the things that is not uncommon
> in our practice..
> all the dinerio washed clean por dios
A lovely story, and the wise lady's consideration was intended for good, and received for good. We would achieve the same ends, but by different means. And to me, the important part of this story isn't the mass per se, it is that someone acting in Christian love thought to please you by honoring your brother, in a way that would have particular value to you, and did.
> how to use the things of this world
> and snactify them in the using
> that's a great idea
God made the world, and everything it in.
> snactify
>
> sounds like preritual hors d'oevres
Or an all-too-apt description of our ritual feast.
since private masses are all but relegated now to the land of obsolescence the notion of indulgences is carried out in the comunal practice of the names of the ones to whom memory is givin in a particualar mass the names are stated and the mass proceeds and it means a great deal to people
it is philosophical it is the way we see the person it is a way of understanding a constant interaction between the communion of saints in heaven and the worshipping faithful here on earth
perhaps some would call it a psychological issue that catholics maintain this domain of the religious imagination complete with personages angels and what not the living spirit of the one i once knew her on earth
always plenty of room for the imagination for the awe that children have when the world begins to appear before them in ever greater splendour...you're probably right the catholic churchs' fundamental corruption just may be the preoccuaption we have with art and images of all kinds...at our best we are sensual to degree known only in erotic discourse
i think jesus established the standard that if the work is being done then the oxen will eat...the support will be there...god and mammon tension still esists however...oftentimes in catholic churches the biggest gripe is the annual campaign....all they ever want is money blah balh blah ...there is now a more obvious connection between parishes with money and needy parishes in third world lands...that sort of rallying around money is often very energetic
but catholics do like to have masses said still for the souls of the faithful departed and for those who are ill and for thsoe who are lost adn for thsoe who are in need in any way...ther's a politeness and a gentel expectation of goodness in it all for th most part
althouogh i did now a priest who took off with the collection onetime and headed for vegas...word is he was doing alright till the devil showed up...anyway he served out his life as a good priest...who knows maybe he made some monet for a good cause
charity is aided by people being detached from there money the church should receive it and give it out with a blessed nod of disinterest adn detachment
amen
j
> since private masses are all but
> relegated now to the land of obsolescence
A good thing. Mass/Communion should be for the community...
> perhaps some would call it a
> psychological issue that catholics
> maintain this domain of the religious
> imagination complete with personages
> angels and what not the living spirit
> of the one i once knew her on earth
Lutherans are stuffier in this, no doubt. I personally enjoy the vision of heavenly worship in Isaiah 6 and Revelation 4, but these are peculiar tastes for one born and raised in my tradition.
> you're probably right the catholic
> churchs' fundamental corruption just
> may be the preoccuaption we have with
> art and images of all kinds...at our
> best we are sensual to degree known
> only in erotic discourse
I don't believe I ever made this accusation! Nor, I think, is it accurate, fair, or useful to refer to the Catholic Church as fundamentally corrupt. Now now, not even in the 15th century.
> i think jesus established the standard
> that if the work is being done then
> the oxen will eat...
Deuteronomy 25:4, and cited by Paul in 1 Cor 9:9 to argue that the Corinthians ought to contribute to his livelihood.
> oftentimes in catholic churches the
> biggest gripe is the annual campaign....
> all they ever want is money blah balh
> blah ...
Another point of similarity. Although I've read that Protestant Churches receive about 2% of their parishioner's annual income, vs. 1% for Catholic Churches. [My source here is Andrew Greeley.] If this discrepancy is real, I believe it is tied to the fact that the Protestant laity feels (and indeed, is) more responsible for the management of their churches than the Catholic laity. Whether or not this is a good thing is certainly debatable, but it does seem to have an impact in terms of stewardship response.
> there is now a more obvious connection
> between parishes with money and needy
> parishes in third world lands...
> that sort of rallying around money is
> often very energetic
I applaud all churches that feel empowered to help those of greater need.
Peace.
here's a thing
before the network gets shut down here
for 24 hrs or so
tonite we celebrated the vigil
for the feast of the sacred heart
we set aside a day where we acknowledge this organ of jesus and sometimes it is depicted with physiological precision
and we read of the spear in the side at the crucifixion and we dwell on the blood and water streaming there and we give our lives of faith over to a rather goary phenomnon...the pulsing beating heaving heart of jesus...as something we tie ourselves into at this time of year
and i think it is somehow connected to our eucharistic sense
and it also feeds into a legitimization of private masses that ordained priest still say quite frequently in hotel rooms (better than other things they could be doing) and even here in the monastery there are still visitors who request a private mass space so it happens and i think it is a fine practice
once when involved in the ignatian excercises i was asked to do a before sunrise meditation in the chapel and i realized at one point that there were 5 or 6 priests all saying private masses and i felt strength from knowing this strength that this is all good
again
the RC approach after vatican II allowed for a multiplicity of possibilities for celebrating the mass...it took on a quality of versatility and expediency...i think that aspect will always be part of the knowledge of praying the mass...
but the sacred heart thing
it seems so natural to us
but i was thinking that a christian
with no knowledge whatsoever of the feast who observed this for the first time might think us quite odd
there's a whole powerhouse of devotion surrounding this sacred heart thing too
some parishes are really animated with it
j
Post a Comment