As many of you know, the ELCA Assembly recently passed a social statement on human sexuality which condones monogamous same-sex relationships, and a separate measure that permits congregations to call pastors who are in monogamous same-sex relationships. It goes without saying that this has been a difficult time for my synod, and we face significant challenges.
The day this happened, a tornado blew the cross down at Central Minneapolis Lutheran, which is across the street from the main assembly, and in which some sessions had been held. Needless to say, this struck many who hold more conservative views on the matter as God having his say on the matter. Perhaps it is. But I was reminded of something else:
We believe we are going where God is calling us. I hope you are where God is calling you to be, too.
Peace
17 comments:
the only thing i find disturbing about this is the increase in the division between christian orthodoxy and the protestant world...catholics will never abide this nor will the easten orthodox and for some christians to simply selfrighteously presume they are on a path of grace over this issue is to gesture with middle finger to the tradition...judaism checked itself against this...the earliest christian sources reveal a staunch refusal to allow this practice into the fold....in more recent catholic moral teaching (recent as in 19th century) it was understood as the "claw of satan"...i'd like to get back to that thinking...now it seems we've (meaning you've)opened the door to thinking which emerges out of secular atheistic humanism -- and with very little by way of serious critique --essentially this is power play for the ELCA and the anglicans -- and it can be nothing but misguided - i'm sorry for you
the ethical foundation of "natural law" seems to be rejected from the arguments in favor of such a thing
all i know is that it brings back the old admonishment to stay distant from those churches -- i was told as a child i could not go into lutheran churches --- since then i have been in lutheran churches many times -- sometimes to my great edification --- now however i shall not step foot in one again until this perverse judgement is reversed --- sorry
still willing to talk but horribly disappointed
in practice the catholic attitude has been "love the sinner - hate the sin" with the result that within the confession there is ample forgiveness
but if people insist that it is a given and there is nothing to fogive well i say
all bets are off
the discussion is over
at the table of ecumenical possibility
the catholic church is right in saying to people who claim this persuasion in the sexual arena young men who wish to enter religious life or seminary - you must be on probation for 3 yrs accept celibacy as the way and then re-apply...yet i think the position is that the person must acknowledge their diversion in terms of perfect chastity
if that is the goal then i think there is a possibility of moving ahead
to acknowledge the character of people as being naturally predisposed to this kind of behaviour...is to fly in the face of the concept of chastity which has been nurtured and honored within christianity since the beginning
i suppose ELCA folks all think this is righteous and good but it is invidious...for i now will always be discriminated against for my contrary position -- and i will not relent
i'm so sorry about this
and a bit sick as well
j
No, this is for sexually active gay priests. The ONLY stipulation is that they're supposed to be involved in long-term couples.
It's a mess that has been coming this way for at least a decade. I thought it would not make it through this round, and they did win by one vote.
That vote would have been ours, but we dropped out of the ELCA in March. Many said we should stay in and fight. But for those who were leading our congregation, it was turning into an endless battle.
I think Mark Hanson the ELCA Bishop will now freeze all further discussion on the topic. Anybody who even raises it will be anathema.
It was never going to be a done deal until they won, and then it was going to be a done deal permanently.
That's how the left works. They keep the conversation wide open until they get what they want, and then there's no further discussion permitted. Stu himself will not stoop to that level, but the authorities in the ELCA almost certainly will.
They may have a kind of townhall or two over the issue, but any naysayers will be treated like furniture that's already in the dump.
At any rate, now the Episcopalians and the ELCA are back on a par, and back into full communion.
But I like and wonder about, Stu's sanguine and seemingly gleeful acceptance of the vote. It's only a one vote win out of over a thousand votes. But it's decisive, and I think the matter is now considered permanently settled.
All that's left is the breaking up of congregations that have been in place for a hundred years and more, until the buildings are empty of all memories, and only rats and mice will set foot into them.
That's my feeling about what will happen, but you never know.
Time will tell. It does in fact put a huge schism between the Orthodox, Catholics, and at least two denominations within the Protestant world.
And who knows who's right?
It's just like the Republican-Democratic debate. People see these things from totally different perspectives, and then suddenly, something might shift a perspective, and you now see it differently.
You never know.
When Gay Studies won in the universities (unthinkable in the 60s) it was only a matter of time before participants began to focus on the ethics and aesthetics of fist-fucking. After all, it was what Tillich called an "ultimate concern" for many.
I can almost guarantee that someone soon in an ELCA church will give a similar sermon, and gigglingly chuckle about "Do unto others..."
And I think if I was Perez Hilton, I would be delighted, too.
http://perezhilton.com/2009-08-22-the-lutheran-church-allows-gays-to-serve-as-members-of-the-clergy
jh—
Many thanks for your thoughts.
the only thing i find disturbing about this is the increase in the division between christian orthodoxy and the protestant world
I agree.
for some christians to simply selfrighteously presume they are on a path of grace over this issue is to gesture with middle finger to the tradition
I hope that I have not fallen into this sin. Certainly, no one I know feels that the increase in separation between us and the Catholic and Orthodox faiths is a good thing. But I've seen the "liberal" wing of the Lutheran Church struggle with how to deal with this issue for more than 30 years now.
As I see it, there's a portion of our congregants who will be so angry about this that they'll leave. For gay members, and gays who want to participate as pastors, there is and will be much celebration. For the rest of us, the reaction is more along the lines of, "Ninevah, Lord? Must it be Ninevah?" But given that it is, it is absolutely necessary that we approach this with confidence and hope.
essentially this is power play for the ELCA and the anglicans
This is don't follow at all. This has nothing to do with us vs. you.
i was told as a child i could not go into lutheran churches --- since then i have been in lutheran churches many times -- sometimes to my great edification --- now however i shall not step foot in one again until this perverse judgement is reversed --- sorry
I am too. I think we both lose something here.
still willing to talk but horribly disappointed
I am truly thankful for your willingness to be engaged. This wasn't my fight, nor did I vote on this. But like you in your church, I have to trust that the people charged with the responsibility for discernment in mine have acted in good faith.
And I want to be careful here. I'm not trying to say that I'd have voted against either the social statement or the clergy statement. My attitudes on this matter have undergone considerable adjustment over the past 30 years. But I am glad not to have had the responsibility, for it would have been a terrible weight.
but if people insist that it is a given and there is nothing to fogive well i say
all bets are off
the discussion is over
at the table of ecumenical possibility
Being realistic here, I think that the possibility of reunion in our lifetimes was already nonexistant, because of the difference in our churches' stands over the role of women. I suspect that long after we've found common ground (and I have no idea what that common ground might be) on issues like abortion and homosexuality and the marital status of clergy, that will continue to divide us. God have mercy on us all.
to acknowledge the character of people as being naturally predisposed to this kind of behaviour...is to fly in the face of the concept of chastity which has been nurtured and honored within christianity since the beginning
May I cordially disagree? I don't expect you to agree with my position here, but clearly the emphasis in the social statement (and the clergy statement) is on faithfulness, applying parallel standards and structures to homosexuals as to heterosexuals. The expectation is one in which sexual activity is limited to committed couples, and where the church has accepted a role as both witness to and protector of the monogamous relationships that have sought its sanction.
i suppose ELCA folks all think this is righteous and good but it is invidious...for i now will always be discriminated against for my contrary position -- and i will not relent
I do not see where the discrimination might come from. I honestly do not.
Peace
Kirby—
Thank you for your notes. A few comments...
I think Mark Hanson the ELCA Bishop will now freeze all further discussion on the topic. Anybody who even raises it will be anathema.
I think this is partly true. The vote has happened. For now, we do need to move forward in hope and confidence, and not look back with anxiety. But there will come a time for reflection, probably in another 8-10 years; just as it has been about a decade since the last time the ELCA tried to produce a sexuality statement. Those who favored more inclusiveness then lost, and were pretty much told that they'd have to wait a decade or so before the issue could be reconsidered. So it will be now, the other way.
At any rate, now the Episcopalians and the ELCA are back on a par, and back into full communion.
We were in full communion before. I think this will have the effect of drawing us a bit closer to the Episcopalians (or at least, the dominate strain of Episcopalianism in the US), but its not going to bring us to formal union in my lifetime.
Stu's sanguine and seemingly gleeful acceptance of the vote.
Sanguine, yes. Gleeful, no. Supportive, and willing to see if we can spread the Gospel through this stand, yet.
All that's left is the breaking up of congregations that have been in place for a hundred years and more, until the buildings are empty of all memories, and only rats and mice will set foot into them.
That's my feeling about what will happen, but you never know.
I don't know. Today was just another day in my congregation. The matter came up in adult ed, and one of the people who has been most adamant in opposition to this was there. She was aware of the vote, and sounded disappointed, but not at all like someone who was planning to leave.
Well, I hope your congregations stay together. I think the whole idea in the first place was that it would be a good idea to divide them. I wonder how the sermons will change.
The lessons in academia at least in the humanities have moved with lightning speed away from any kind of Christian thought to a full-fledged Coliseum of cheering Neros.
Oy vey.
Kirby—
Well, I hope your congregations stay together. I think the whole idea in the first place was that it would be a good idea to divide them.
I hope they do to. And I never saw division as a goal in anyone's mind (admittedly, I do not claim to have polled everyone).
I wonder how the sermons will change.
I expect that there will occasionally be an even greater emphasis on our responsibility to welcome everyone who comes. I don't expect that the particular issues of homosexual couples will get much "air time" in typical congregations.
The lessons in academia at least in the humanities have moved with lightning speed away from any kind of Christian thought to a full-fledged Coliseum of cheering Neros.
I hope that the ELCA will prove more solidly grounded. We shall see.
the other principle i've been thinking about recently is problem o fthe paradigmatic
it appears that with this as a reality in the ranks of protestantism what will happen is the men and i presume women will embody a symbolic role and then that will become interpreted in successive generations
were i a parent i don't think i would be giving my kids an option
o you can be anything...you can be just like pastor jim and his wife robert
we read in ephesians 5 today our second reading and it struck me that paul is speaking very directly to this and he calls the tendencies to rationalize - idolatry
and it seems to me there is a very different god at work in all this
i'm going with ephesians on this one
and yet i greatly admire your experience in it all it is much more "political" and engaged in the dynamic of community than is mine...the issue has come up here in the monstery a few times in my years here and the judgement has always come down on the side of "we are celibate christians pursuing a life of perfect chastity and that is that" there's no room for compromise
chastity is a virtue and people fail and fall and we can accept that...but it seems to me that even here now the "conflict" aspect of it all has died down and people are beginning to question the presuppositions of the rhetoric of human sciences and that is a welcome change as far as i can see
you're great stu
your pastoral sense comes through your words
quite clearly
thanks
j
monstery
kirby will love that
j
jh—
it appears that with this as a reality in the ranks of protestantism what will happen is the men and i presume women will embody a symbolic role and then that will become interpreted in successive generations
I don't understand, and wish I did. Could you elaborate, or explain in a different way?
were i a parent i don't think i would be giving my kids an option
o you can be anything...you can be just like pastor jim and his wife robert
Let me approach this as someone who is a parent, and who has raised a couple of children to the threshold of adulthood.
We hope that our children will be much like ourselves, that they will share our values, our faith. And we provide them with our example, knowing that they'll be exposed to many other examples, and many other values.
Children have a way of becoming themselves. They contain very strong echoes of their parents, but they are their own people. I see in both my daughter and my son a strong sense of justice—a willingness (almost eagerness) to put themselves at disadvantage or risk to protect those who are weaker. I am extraordinarily proud of them in this.
A faith in God and Jesus Christ lives in both, although both are in those "lost years" in their early 20's when actually attending church isn't a priority. I am confident this will change. Both of my children appear to be solidly heterosexual, and my daughter as you know was married a couple of weeks ago.
Yet if one or the other was homosexual, I would not love them any less. If homosexuality is a choice, it is an incomprehensible one. Certainly, I don't see evidence that homosexuality is "contagious," i.e., that exposure to homosexual models will make an otherwise "straight" person "gay." But exposure to a faithful homosexual model might give a homosexual young adult a vision of as healthy and happy a future as they might be able to obtain. Let me add that I would not have minded if my children had more celibate examples, even though I would hope for them both a conventional family life. But the only virtue in faithless examples is cautionary. They each seem to get that.
I know that you doubt the reality of heterosexuality and homosexuality as meaningful a priori categories. I find it difficult to understand my experiences with same-sex oriented individuals unless they are.
we read in ephesians 5 today our second reading and it struck me that paul is speaking very directly to this and he calls the tendencies to rationalize - idolatry
Ephesians 5 is a powerful text. Are we out of sync? That was last week for us. It must be after Corpus Christi...
the issue has come up here in the monstery a few times in my years here and the judgement has always come down on the side of "we are celibate christians pursuing a life of perfect chastity and that is that" there's no room for compromise
Of course it has, and of course you have, and I mean nothing the least bit dismissive by this. Celibacy (a.k.a., perfect chastity) is a part of your community's self-definition. Any change to this is a change to what you are, and you see yourself (perfectly reasonably and appropriately) as a part of a community that consists not merely of those currently alive, but those who have lived, and those who will live, according to your rule.
chastity is a virtue and people fail and fall and we can accept that
I agree. But the agreement is a complicated agreement, not a simple agreement. But there is no disagreement as to what it should mean within your community, or others organized according to the same principles.
you're great stu
your pastoral sense comes through your words
quite clearly
thanks
As does yours. I value your input tremendously. Many thanks!
monstery
kirby will love that
It is a classic :-).
Peace
Monstery -- it should be used from now on to define churches that have become brothels.
An abbottoir in French is a slaughterhouse I seem to recall.
People turn everythign upside down. I remember a poem by a guy named Mike Kettner who worked in the parking division at the University of Washington -- it was just a single line:
"Tables once turned, keep on turning."
I never forgot that poem, and it recurs to me a lot. I wonder what happened to him. He had a small press bookstores in the 80s, then had a heart attack, but survived, sold his bookstore, and ended up in the parking division at the UW.
I helped him find the job. He needed something relatively easy. I was temping at the time at the UW, and told him about the job.
If a group defines themselves wrt lower body sexuality, can they still be considered Christian?
ELCA: yes!
If a group defines themselves wrt lower body sexuality, can they still be considered Christian?
ELCA: yes!
Actually, I think you have this backwards. If a person accepts Christ, we accept them whether they are homosexual or heterosexual.
A more accurate question would be this: If the LCMS defines you to belong to a group defined in terms of sexual orientation, does it reserve the right to eject you from its assembly?
My interest in organized religion is chiefly genealogical in that both of my parents were raised very much within midwestern churches that were quite literally built by their pioneer ancestors. They met at a liberal arts college founded by and for the churches all four of my grandparents attended and all four of them graduated from that college. My parents' marriage was in a certain sense a merger between the older Ohio and Indana congregations with the newer Wisconsin and Minnesota congregations. Both were part of what had been called the Evangelical Association which was largely dispersed as a result of the Great Depression and WWII.
More formal mergers in 1953 and 1968 brought my grandparents into the fold of United Methodism, but the church that my dad's great great grandparents built is Missouri Synod.
My mother's great grandparents built a church shortly after they arrived in South Bend during the Civil War and in their obituaries they are described as having been raised in the Lutheran faith. My dad's father was a minister and both of his sister's married ministers. My mother's grandfather was a minister and his wife was the youngest of seven sisters raised in their father's parsonage. The school my parents and grandparents attended had been called Northwestern for about two decades when the Wesleyans came to Chicago with enough money to decide they liked that name and would use it.
My dad did well enough in school to get into a graduate program in southern Illinois and from there to another graduate program in Kansas. Big state schools freed them from what they considered the claustrophobic confines of religious overkill. Consequently, my siblings and I were raised with a complete absence of religious indoctrination.
We moved from Kansas to the state of Washington with two or three other families at the end of January, 1961. The last thing I saw on television in Topeka, Kansas, was the inauguration of JFK, as that was the week we loaded up the station wagon and followed the Oregon Trail to a little town on the upper reaches of the Puget Sound. My dad and his colleagues had been interviewed and hired by the state governor to overhaul the state's mental health services. It was a pilot project, run out of a wing of an old mental hospital, for three years on a month to month contract that culminated in a federal grant and the acquisition of an entire hospital that had been recently replaced in a county with the state's largest military establishment. It became the state's first mental health center.
One of my dad's colleagues was another clinical psychologist, a Pennsylvanian descended from the inventor of the Pullman car, who bought a house next door to what is now called the Bloedel Reserve, where Roethke took his fateful unplanned swim. They were Episcopalians. The psychiatrist on the team was from the westernmost county in Maryland. He was raised Catholic and had developed an interest in psychiatry while serving in the navy. His wife and kids were very Lutheran. The three families socialized together at every major holiday and on numerous other occasions as well and it wasn't until substantially later, when all three of them had graduated from government work into private practice, that it occurred to some of us that their relationship comprised what some observers of the Soviet Union might have called a troika.
It wasn't that I wasn't exposed at all to organized religion. We lived for a year on a beach with a neighbor on each side. The Bishops, on one side, were Pentecostal and apparently wont to proselytize, but not that I ever noticed. They had five girls and their father had a pellet pistol he'd let me shoot from time to time before I was able to convince my mother that having a BB gun would not do me irreparable harm. The neighbor on the other side, the Moore's, had two sons, the youngest exactly my age. Their dad was a barber. I think they may have been Congregationalists and my parents allowed me to attend a summer bible school with their son that met once a week and even had workbooks and homework.
Apart from that one experience, and going to church once with my grandmother on a vacation to South Bend, I don't recall ever going inside a church until I was in college in Houston. I had a roommate for a few months who was a church organist at the biggest grandest Methodist church in the entire city and it had a huge pipe organ designed specifically for visits from Virgil Fox and E. Power Biggs. We went there one night at 2 a.m. so I could hear my roommate play Rachmaninoff's Hungarian Rhapsody. We were pretty stoned at the time. My other roommate was a music major and pianist. His parents were both lawyers who were divorced, one in Denver, the other Chicago. He had a trust fund and a big allowance, but lived like an anchorite. The church organist was the son of a Houston police officer whose job was to visit schools and give assemblies discouraging drug use.
My mother's brother was a church organist by the time he was five years old. He served in the navy during WWII as a chaplain's aide on a supply ship that delivered marines to the beaches of Eniwetok. His job on the ship was to play the organ anytime the chaplain held services. He taught English for more than twenty years after the war at a private military academy for kids like my cousin, whose behavior made them a bad fit for public schools. My cousin's dad was a football and baseball coach at a public high school. My cousin played quarterback on the military academy team and often caused problems for my uncle.
My uncle came out to Seattle to visit during the Seattle World's Fair in 1962. He brought a former student with him named Arthur and they slept in the same bed, but I wouldn't want to assume from that that he was necessarily gay. The word still meant something else at that particular point in time. That was the year my uncle was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. He died in 1982 and spent the last five years of his life bedridden and essentially paralyzed. It was during those five years that he finally learned to read sheet music.
Yes, another reason I oppose the Lutherans, and even liberal episcopalians. Same-sex people should have the same rights of everyone, yet they DO NOT have a right to preach, or work as priests. Lo siento.
When lesbians or gay altar boys preach (or work as priests, assistant pastors, whatever), the services have become pretty much meaningless. And that is the case, especially in LA area.
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