These thoughts were inspired by a conversation over at John Hanson's blog, De Gustibus, we all need something, and I'd like to acknowledge my double debt to Brother John, not only for initiating and hosting that conversation, but also for a gentle and generous comment here that agitated me to write again.
Robert Maynard Hutchins coined the notion of “The Great Conversation,” which is defined as, “a characterization of references and allusions made by authors in the Western canon to the works of their predecessors.” This notion became, in due course, the seminal idea upon which Hutchins and others ultimate built “The Great Books.” The question as it came up on De Gustibus considered the status of religion in the Great Conversation, and the sense that religion is being relegated to a marginal and mostly honorary role in that Conversation. I think this is an important question, but it is not today's question. Today's question regards the health of the Great Conversation itself.
I'll begin by illustrating and expanding a bit on Hutchins' idea. Melville's novel, “Moby Dick,” is built upon references to the Old Testament, from the first sentence, “Call me Ishmael,” to the last, “It was the devious-cruising Rachel, that in her retracing search after her missing children, only found another orphan.” Here we see a pattern of references he could assume would be meaningful to his readers. References which would enable him to say less, but mean more. His novel does not stand alone, but it builds on that which came before, and indeed, I suspect that more people today associate the name “Ahab” with the Great White Whale than with Jezebel or Elijah. Melville entered the conversation.
At this point, I'd like leverage this example into three related digressions:
- If “Moby Dick” is a part of the Great Conversation by dint of its references to the Bible, doesn't this mean that the Bible is also a part of the Great Conversation? Yes. Isn't this obvious? It certainly was to the authors of “the Great Books,” who in their introduction made the point that they didn't include the Bible in their collection simply because they expected any of its readers to already have multiple copies. Indeed, if we remember that the Bible is not a book, but a collection of books, we can already see the Great Conversation at work within the Bible, as one book quotes another.
- Hey, isn't the Great Conversation supposed to be about the Western canon? The Bible is a lot of things, but it is mostly written from the very different perspective of oriental culture. The first thing you have to understand about Western culture is its acquisitive nature. We claim the Bible. You don't like it? We don't care.
- What about other cultures? Don't they have conversations too? Isn't it both arrogant and limiting to focus on the Western canon? Alright then. The second thing you have to understand about Western culture is that it is arrogant. But yes, it is limiting, which is both good and bad. What gets sometimes gets lost in the “Dead White Male Lit” vs. “World Lit” debate is a willingness to acknowledge what both sides have right. There is a distinctive Western conversation (nods to the right), but it is itself in conversation with other culture's conversations (nods to the left). The Bible, one of the foundational documents of the Western canon, is very much a case-in-point, but hardly a unique one. I'll cite Hesse's “Siddartha”, Achebe's “Things Fall Apart,” and the cinematic conversation between Kurosawa and Leone.
But now we get to the question. What is the health of the Great Conversation today? How might we assess it?
This is a critical time for the Great Conversation. Even in the early 50's, Hutchins wrote about how then-recent events had challenged (but in his estimation, unsuccessfully) foundational values of Western culture. And perhaps it was revulsion to Hitler's racial interpretation of Nietzsche's elitist notion of Übermensch that lead Mortimer Adler to push the egalitarian notion that the best education for the best is the best education for all. And the Great Books grew out of this, as an explicit attempt to make the Great Conversation accessible to all. These challenges, while they have not yet overwhelmed us, remain unabated. And all the while, technology has been producing profound changes in the nature of publishing, driving down costs and increasing bandwidth, to the point where anyone with access to a public library, a Google account, and an axe to grind, can set up shop and hope to reach billions. The absence of a public library notwithstanding, this blog itself is a case-in-point.
My thesis is that the Great Conversation has all but collapsed. As more and more people have entered in, and as time-to-publication has fallen from years to milli-seconds, the Great Conversation has pivoted. We no longer consider so much the great minds of the past, nor do we hope to engage the great minds of the future. We write for today's comments, which after a week's time will live forever unread on Google: cache without value.
My thesis is that these are the New Dark Ages: that we've walled ourselves off from the past and future of the Great Conversation, in favor of more vigorous but ultimately ephemeral chatter. We know more facts, but possess less understanding, less wisdom. We are trapped in the ignorance of now.
But I see hope. Whether through nature, or through God, our excesses are inevitably corrected. Difficult times, which is simply another way of saying times that involve changes we don't understand, are times when we're compelled to look beyond us. And we face difficult times, perhaps difficult enough to tear us away from our inward gaze. If not now, soon.
Peace
14 comments:
and i only am escaped alone to tell thee job
well i tried to comment
seems my blogger world
is fraught with mystery
will a new password lend me credibility
sometimes i have this feeling
there's an audience
brilliant deduction
i spent some time with the novel summer before last i did not read it to the end
although
i read the end again just because i know it is too fantastic to believe yet enchanting
this is what we lack
enchantment
the conversation allows for troubadours for fools for pomposity for humble expression for long poems and short
the conversation is more world wide than it was 100 years ago
therein lies some hope
fishing stories have become somewhat passe'
yet they remain important
we must not forget that
kirby for all his myopia tends to sustain a cyber equivalent of the conversation
marx gregory corso breton and a lethal dose of antiliberal flabbergas seems to be his recipe
i assess the webworld as the new tower of babble -- the hand held extensions of the technology prove me somewhat perceptive if nothing else
we should have never let the business people in on the deal
in monasteries at least the dark ages saw monks tirelessly copying texts sustaining musical knowledge and exploring ever improved means of self sustenance
maybe teachers should dare their students to handwrite small works as if they were necessary for the survival of knowledge
the kids seem to want to plagiraize
maybe it's instictive
well
i'll be go to hell
( a montana expression )
jh
jh,
and i only am escaped alone to tell thee job
Indeed :-).
i spent some time with the novel summer before last i did not read it to the end
although
i read the end again just because i know it is too fantastic to believe yet enchanting
Yes. Quick question... At the end, as the Pequod is going under, a member of the crew traps the wing of a hawk with a hammer against the mast, and pulls it down with the ship. Melville theologies on this, "[Ahab's] ship, which, like Satan, would not sink to hell till she had dragged a living part of heaven along with her, and helmeted herself with it." Is there an antecedent story in the OT? I can't think of one. But it is an arresting image, in my mind, perhaps even the defining image of the novel.
this is what we lack
enchantment
Perhaps so. Tolkien contributed, surely. Indeed, he may be one of the last voices in the Great Conversation as it was.
the conversation is more world wide than it was 100 years ago
therein lies some hope
True. I cited Achebe. I could have cited Endo, whose "Silence" is wonderful and terrible. The defining novel of the Vietnam War might well be "The Sadness of War," by Bao Ninh.
fishing stories have become somewhat passe'
yet they remain important
we must not forget that
"A River Runs Through It," my favorite novel.
kirby for all his myopia tends to sustain a cyber equivalent of the conversation
Kirby's blog illustrates my point, though. For all the energy and erudition and pride that gets poured into his blog by him and his commentors, will it matter in a century's time? Or a week's? It's the Great Chatter, "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." For if it leaves no discernable trace, did it happen, or was it just a dream? Without some enduring impact, it's mere entertainment, a diversion, not a contribution. Sure, we hone our rhetorical and poetic skills, but to what end?
This isn't ennui, it's frustration. We live in the moment, and thereby, out of time. We will be as inaccessible to our successors as our past is to us. Hence, a Dark Age. It's not that nothing happened, it's that very little of what did matters.
i assess the webworld as the new tower of babble -- the hand held extensions of the technology prove me somewhat perceptive if nothing else
I agree. Babble == Chatter. Lots of sound, lots of energy, but nothing worth continuing the following morning.
in monasteries at least the dark ages saw monks tirelessly copying texts sustaining musical knowledge and exploring ever improved means of self sustenance
Maybe the thought of a new Dark Age is comforting to a monk? It is not that the Great Conversation died out during the Dark Ages, only to be restarted afresh later. It was kept alive in monasteries, not only preserved but nourished.
Thank you.
Peace
i am intrigued by this idea
of challenging students
to hand-copy great works
i used to allow students
to bring a page or two of notes
to use during exams
they would bring in mostly
downloaded material and
photocopies of diagrams
i now only allow them to use
hand-written notes during exams
thinking that at least the process
of copying something down by hand
allows some potential
for the material to lodge in the brain
i pretty much agree with your post stu
though i suppose maybe there is
a natural human need for social chatter
i hear it even at the catholic mass
which i have been attending lately
i was thinking i could go there
for quiet meditation in the mornings
this is somewhat stymied
by the continuous conversation
that the regulars there engage in
while waiting for deacon to arrive
(and sometimes for a considerable period
after he arrives--
he just politely waits
for them to finish
so he can begin the communion service)
anyway
i'm learning to take it in stride
i shut my eyes
and sit in the presence of the blessed sacrament
i am starting to believe
in this real presence stuff
because i can feel my heart opening
to the people around me
and their need to affirm each other's existence
with conversation
sally,
i now only allow them to use
hand-written notes during exams
thinking that at least the process
of copying something down by hand
allows some potential
for the material to lodge in the brain
A thought: would it make sense to ask the students to hand in these notes, not for the purpose of assessment, but as a kind of feedback mechanism? To see what the students think is both important and confusing? The idea would be to return these notes, of course.
I worry a bit about differences in handwriting efficiency. Maybe I worry too much.
i am starting to believe
in this real presence stuff
It's the difference between ritual and sacrament. Is it what we do, or it is what God does for us?
It's the difference between ritual and sacrament. Is it what we do, or it is what God does for us?
nicely put
momentum is sisyphusian at best on these things
i mean it's not as if you're being really optimistic
jh,
momentum is sisyphusian at best on these things
It's not clear to me what “these things” refers to. I'd be grateful for a bit of elaboration.
these things being blogs
cyberconversations
in general
uphill 2 steps back down 3
ah well
we must keep trying
:->
jh,
these things being blogs
Ah, yes.
in general
uphill 2 steps back down 3
I'm a bit more hopeful. Sometimes back 3, sometimes back 1. I hope for a 49-51 division, so that there's progress in the long run. But yes, if this is optimism, it's the optimism of a cynic.
I actually lost the two edges of the conversation: JADL and Curtis. They represented the cussed edges, and without them I think I lost the polarizing quality that charged up the blog. I'm also neck deep in teaching right now plus I signed on to lead a soccer team full of 4th through sixth graders through a season as their head coach. So I spend a lot of time working on the line-ups and getting interesting combinations of kids to play together instead of trying to get conversations of people to play together. We need so much to recapture the American conversations of those before us. Not just Moby Dick and its author, and poetry and theology, but also the lost political geniuses. I rediscovered George Mason today -- one of the founders, but less known than the others. He backed the Bill of Rights and is considered with Madison to be the father of the document. How can there be two fathers? Never heard of such a thing.
At any rate we beat a team called Downsville last night, 9-1. The kids are enchanted. Our season is over October 22nd.
I'm not sure any of us will ever matter in the big scheme of things. We don't have enough money. Money matters. My whole movement was based on reviving surrealism and retrofitting it with a lost religion: Lutheranism.
This has about as much chance of catching on as paisley with plaid combinations at next spring's fashion season in Prague. But, hope springs eternal.
Reason must be reconciled with faith. The arc between the two is a rainbow that we at least tried to resurrect and with it the notion that the culture of the avant-garde is still primarily something for Christians to attend to -- let's not forget that other dreamer Don Quixote.
Kirby,
I'm doubtful that it's the loss of JADL and Curtis. I think it's that too many of principals are swamped. Certainly I am, and it means that I haven't had a lot of energy to throw gas on the fire. I'm probably bound up until November. No soccer team, but classes, grants, and church stuff. It's all good, but it is a lot.
Gotcha. Summer was fulfilling. We mustn't take the downtown as a personal failing of any one of us, or of us as a team. We're just forced to accomplish in other areas of life.
Good luck with it. Perhaps over the break we can get back to throwing true fireballs at one another. that kind of thing can be fun as well as educative.
Yes...but what does Moby Dick indicate about...theology (or Capn Melville's beliefs)? No Kirby Olson sort of biblethumping will you find. Ahab's no preacher--he's something like a tragic hero, Shakespearean
Queegueg in The Shark Massacre offers a vision of a rather...unorthodox Deity: “wedder Fejee god or Nantucket God… de god what made shark must be one dam Ingin.” A creator of sharks would seem to be somewhat at odds with like Mr JC (however obvious, actually hints at the problem of evil chestnut).
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